July 13, 2007
"Evolution" proves Theory of Evolution Wrong - Again
Heh. Scientists
are crowing over "new proof" of evolution -- which once again proves that evolution isn't what Darwin's theory claims.
In the article, scientists point out that a butterfly developed a gene to resist a parasite in less than one year -- 10 generations. They're claiming that evolution occurred in a "flash" instead of over billions of years. But what they're not noticing is that the evolution occurred so that the butterflies could remain the same. In other words, these new, evolved butterflies are not bigger, better, strong, or indeed even different -- they're the same butterfly. They didn't evolve to change. They didn't evolve into another species. They didn't evolve into humans -- they evolved to stay the same.
That's evolution -- species adapting to survive. It's not evolution into something different. It's not a dog changing into a monkey. This is NOT what Darwin's theory teaches -- Darwin claimed that species evolved into other species -- and there's simply no evidence of that happening.
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August 31, 2006
Darwin & Hitler
Cao has
an excellent post about the connection between
Darwin and Hitler. While some people are just going bananas trying to defend Hitler and claim that Hitler didn't believe in Darwin, just pause and think for a minute.
If you fully accept everything regarding the theory of macro-evolution, then there is no absolute truth. There can be no such thing as right or wrong. In fact, if you accept everything this theory proposes, then not only should I be able to kill anyone I want to at any time, I am required to!
If "survival of the fittest" is how all life came to be, welfare should be abolished because that's in opposition to macro evolution. I should take as many women as I can, by force, for reproduction of my genes -- and I should destroy anyone else who I can, who I deem weaker than myself.
Now "civilization" may be the reason why I can't do that, but then that's in opposition to evolution, too -- and if there is no absolute truth, then who are you to claim that your so-called "civilization" is better than might makes right?
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you said "If, by some weird alignment of planets, someone who is a member of Islam reads this, know this: you do not have to die to please god. He already sent his son to die for you."
That is a great line and true it is. I might have to borrow that one bud.
I almost don't want to use it, It might get some Islam believer to change his religion and they might get killed for it.
Posted by: Robert at September 01, 2006 05:09 AM (n6n5e)
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Please DO use it! Please do!
Thanks for stopping along.
Posted by: Ogre at September 01, 2006 11:42 AM (oifEm)
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June 06, 2006
Too Much Time, Too Many Causes
Here's a new one for you.
Indian Cowboy has started up a new group because apparently there were too many causes and political groups in existence. He's started a group called
Conservatives Against Intelligent Design. Okaaay.
The group exists to
to give a voice to Republicans, Independent Conservatives, and Libertarians across the country who stand opposed to the teaching of ‘intelligent design’ and other forms of creationism in the classroom.
I have to admit, I'm not quite sure why a group needs to exist to oppose teaching a certain type of teaching. And if they want to join an already existing group that's well-funded (with endless taxpayer dollars) that's vehemently opposed to intelligent design, there's the ACLU.
I'm with Dangerous Liberty where he responds with A little Depth Would Be Nice:
Indian Cowboy reveals the astounding ignorance of what ID proposes which is sadly so common among those who oppose it, especially those who do so because they consider it a "perversion of science".
The real reason that appears to be behind those who oppose teaching ID is a vehement opposition to anything resembling religion. Of course, there's a real simple solution that would completely and totally end all this discussion and all these groups -- which is why it won't happen: get government completely out of the education business.
Why does the government have a monopoly on education? If everyone were free to make their own decisions regarding their own education without any government interference, each family could decide for themselves if they wanted ID, creationism, or evolution taught in whatever manner they wanted. But there's few people interested in freedom these days.
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I'm with you there. I don't believe the central government has any business whatsoever in education and it certainly should not be advocating one theory over another. What is so harmful in teaching about an opposing view? We have courses in some schools about becoming Muslim, so how on earth does this alone fall under the so-called anti-establishment clause?
One of the ethics topics that came up in one of my teaching courses dealt with evolution. A hypothetical student knew the theory of evolution inside and out...she had attended a seminar with her church and learned a lot. She wrote her papers in such a way that she demonstrated understanding for the material, was able to answer all questions but she clearly did not believe evolution. The question was whether or not it was ethical to pass her for her knowledge even if she didn't accept it as truth.
How is that a matter of ethics?
Posted by: Dana at June 06, 2006 06:00 PM (aymNT)
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You bring up a good point -- how about forming an organization that's purpose is to remove teaching a religion in school that's openly violent to the American way of life (Islam) before we work to eradicate just Christianity.
And your ethics situation indeed shows a clear indoctrination view as opposed to an educational view. To even ask that question supposes that the purpose of the "passing grade" is to ensure the student AGREES with what is being taught and has nothing to do with whether they have learned it.
But, in today's government-run education system, it is NOT about education -- just another reason the government shouldn't be doing it.
Posted by: Ogre at June 06, 2006 07:01 PM (/k+l4)
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You know where I first learned about ID? In school. Specifically in a philosophy course. Which is exactly where it belongs.
It is a philosophical theory inspired by biology, but it is not biology in and of itself.
This has nothing to do with hating religion; I'm a religious man, many of the signers are religious. Instead it has to do with teaching the right thing in the right place. ID isn't an 'alternative' to evolution. IN fact, if you read Behe's own words, ID is at best an alternative to 'abiogenesis', or the origin of the first living organism. Evolution doesn't speak to that and has never claimed to.
Neither abiogenesis (primordial soup might ring a bell) nor ID are currently taught in much depth. Why? Neither has much evidence. Tantalizing suggestions yes, but nothing concrete enough to be taught in a science class.
The problem here is that ID never had a place in the science class, religiously inspired or not.
Posted by: IndianCowboy at June 06, 2006 10:58 PM (xV6tD)
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i'd be all for getting government out of education if I could be confident that parents wouldn't screw their kids by concealing truth from them.
I've read a fair amount of the ID and creationist 'educational material'. Lies, straw men, and oversimplifications abound, not to mention outright denial of extant evidence.
I dont much like the idea of indoctrinated kids whether it's from bible thumpers (which is different from chrsitian) or leftists.
Posted by: IndianCowboy at June 06, 2006 11:00 PM (xV6tD)
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I disagree with what's taught in the schools -- I see it up close. Uniformitarianism is accepted as fact. The big bang theory is the #1 "fact" taught as accepted "fact" and most instructors make fun of anyone who dares to question or challenge that "Fact." That's not science, either.
And I'm surprised you're opposed to freedom! At least that's what you reveal in your second comment -- you don't trust parents to teach their parents what they want. If I want to teach my children that Africa doesn't exist, why would you presume to stop me?
Someone is going to "indoctrinate" the kids -- you seem to presume that government is better able to do that than I am. I don't trust government to do ANYTHING right, certainly not education.
I'd rather see an organization that's interested in getting the direct teaching of Islam as a Religion of Peace out of schools than one dedicated to the removal of adding a new theory into classrooms.
Thanks for stopping along!
Posted by: Ogre at June 06, 2006 11:12 PM (acZAM)
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Dana: It's a matter of ethics. By asking the question, and implying that the student might not pass, the course designer shows that there are a large number of unethical and/or dogmatic teachers that need to learn this.
For some reason my trackback to this post didn't work, but I've got a thread going at Tucents. It's interesting seeing an avowed socialist and an avowed libertarian in agreement.
Posted by: DaveTucents at June 07, 2006 04:47 PM (VA6Gs)
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That could be, Dave, if the implied answer was that the student should pass. I'm betting in most cases that there are indeed a large number of teachers that would say that the student is an idiot and shouldn't pass. Clearly that's wrong, but I wonder if the ethics class that he attended even considered there was right and wrong...it was a "teaching ethics" course...
Posted by: Ogre at June 07, 2006 05:01 PM (/k+l4)
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Every time I've tried to come over here I get a message saying that the server cannot be found...hence the lateness of any reply : )
Anything other than evolution has been determined to not be "science" since it involves God. Science, I am told, is inherently atheistic. I always thought it was a method of reasoning which involved forming hypothesese and testing them. True, God cannot be tested in such manner. Nor can man coming from ape. Both, I suppose, are postulation. But determining from the outset that there is no God serves to skew any viewpoint on the matter. But much of what evolution teaches cannot be proven any more than God can. Yes, species change over time...but we are yet to find any actual evidence of one species changing to another. And as to that primordial soup and abiogenesis stuff...it is exactly what I was taught in my high school biology class.
So long as we are indoctrinating children, I maintain that as the right of the parents, not the state. (By the way, I'm not big into ID. Under the theory, you can be one of the many who believe life on earth was seeded by alien life forms. But it is a theory...one of many. And some scientists have noted that it does a disservice for a student to not know about it.)
Posted by: Dana at June 11, 2006 02:16 AM (pOl/v)
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Sorry -- the server was under attack for a number of days there.
You are correct in your analysis of science, and especially that of evolution. The way that the theory of evolution was developed was specifically and intentionally anti-God. The theory started like this: There is no God, there is nothing that can influence this world other than natural forces. Now, let's propose stuff.
And yes, absolutely, the parents should have total control. That's what freedom is all about!
Posted by: Ogre at June 11, 2006 03:02 PM (acZAM)
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December 15, 2005
A Creation Story
For those who simply cannot stand Christmas and Christians (hello, ACLU), Joe Carter has posted a nice little
creation story for the materialist. It starts out like this:
In the beginning was Nothing and Nothing created Everything. When Nothing decided to create Everything, she filled a tiny dot with Time, Chance, and Everything and had it explode. The explosion spread Everything into Everywhere carrying Time and Chance with it to keep it company. The three stretched out together leaving bits of themselves wherever they went. One of those places was the planet Earth.
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rofl.
Presumably Nothing was an atheist.
Posted by: Laura at December 15, 2005 10:14 PM (6BLTq)
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No, nothing was nothing. ?
Posted by: Ogre at December 15, 2005 10:41 PM (uSCkp)
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September 27, 2005
ID in Schools
A self-proclaimed "expert" from Duke University, with all the usual "holier than thou" attitudes and ivory tower proclamations has declared, with an expected immediate deference to his much-more-knowledgeable-than-you ruling, that
mentioning that evolution might not actually be 100% correct is unconstitutional.
This is just another liberal who has decided that he knows better than you and should be obeyed at all times. He claims that mentioning anything other than his one, true religion, materialism, in government-run schools is a violation of his right to free speech because his religion (naturalism) is correct and all other religions should not be allowed in any government institution.
In a related, but underreported lawsuit, an unnamed individual has sued the state of North Carolina, demanding that the laws against murder be repealed because they are very clearly an unconstitutional infringement on religion and an establishment of religion.
"The Bible clearly states that 'Thou shall not murder,'" says the lawsuit, filed today in Loon County, "so the state simply cannot have that law. It is an obvious attempt by Christians to enforce their own moral and religious rules on the rest of society."
The lawsuit continues, "In addition, this prohibition on to what many deem to be a sacred religious right, murdering infidels, clearly prohibits law abiding citizens from exercising their own religion. If one person's religion deems that murder is required by their god, who is the state to tell them their religion is wrong?"
The Supreme Court is expected to rule on both lawsuits simultaneously, as the ruling in one lawsuit will most certainly be expected to be applied to both.
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Frankly, I don't think religion has any place in schools, especially Science class. If my child is going to learn about any religion in school, I had better be signing a form for him to attend. Intelligent Design has no place in the classroom IMO. Save it for sunday school, unless maybe we can teach Evolution in Sunday school as well.
Anyhow, the Flying Spaghetti Monster created everything, so there
Posted by: Glyn (Zaphod) Evans at September 27, 2005 03:03 PM (/JF0D)
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Then why can the religion of evolution be taught? It's a belief system, it just happens to be a very common one.
Decades ago, most Americans were Christian, so Christian beliefs were taught in school. Now most Americans are apparently naturalists, so Naturalism, including evolution, is taught in schools.
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2005 03:13 PM (/k+l4)
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The issue is not about religion versus science, ID versus evolution. It is about public education being a political issue. Anything, even the
size of shoes, becomes a controversial topic if it becomes a matter of political force.
In a free market for education, parents would put their money where their mouths are. Creationists would send their children to schools teaching creationism, if they valued it highly enough. Evolutionists would send their children to schools teaching evolution, if they valued it highly enough. My guess is that the issue of evolution/creationism would pale before others such as multiculturalism, environmentalism, moral relativism, and modern liberalism. Would you rather send your child to a school that teaches ID in Science, but multicultural hogwash the rest of the day?
Posted by: Tom at September 28, 2005 03:02 AM (BIAl1)
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Oh- check this out http://catallarchy.net/blog/archives/2005/06/18/monosizean-shoes/
Posted by: Tom at September 28, 2005 03:04 AM (BIAl1)
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And in this case it's not about anything BUT religion -- it's just that the ACLU and the 11 parents here are so intolerant that they will not allow anything other than their own religion to be taught in science class.
Interesting link, I think...
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2005 06:05 AM (iJFc9)
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Actually, I think Tom has a good point. If the FedGov wasn't doling out dollars to local schools (and WHERE in the Constitution is the authorization for THAT power?), this wouldn't be an issue.
Personally, I don't think teaching ID constitutes a violation of the Establishment clause.
I *do* think that it's bad science, but the quality of public education isn't a constitutional matter.
Posted by: Harvey at September 30, 2005 04:39 AM (ubhj8)
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I certainly agree 100%. I don't think government, federal or otherwise, should pay one dollar for schools. And then ALL this would go away.
And if government education were about quality...well, there'd need to be a lot more changed than just this one thing...
Posted by: Ogre at October 02, 2005 07:34 PM (iJFc9)
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September 26, 2005
Naturalistic Faith
If you believe in naturalism and evolution as presented by today's scientists, there are a number of things in which you must have faith. I don't have enough faith in random chance to believe that our entire existence is a cosmic accident.
In this posting, which will be rather long, I'll point out a few of the absolute requirements for just matter to exist -- not even mentioning how much more complex the requirements are for life. Then I'll illustrate the mathematical probabilities that these few conditions can exist via random chance. I'm not presupposing any conclusion -- just read and view the facts of physics and draw your own conclusion.
more...
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Of course, atheists disagree with this position because they believe that their views are by default outside the realm of "belief" or "faith." Logically speaking, you are 100% correct and I think you've done a nice job in presenting evidence where a leap of faith must occur. Naturally, the counter argument used is that we just don't know enough through science in order to address your concerns. Of course, science never defines where inane stuborness in holding to such a view begins and ends. One could make the argument that Pink Unicorns do exist and we just don't have enough science yet to support it, yet such notions are laughed at and dismissed while just as great leaps of faith are required to hold to the prevailing thoughts on cosmic and biological evolution.
Brad
Posted by: Broken Messenger at September 26, 2005 06:38 PM (7pqp9)
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Thanks for stopping by, Brad -- and you get the point of my post entirely. By saying we don't have enough science to explain something means that you must have faith in it. And to believe naturalism actually takes much more faith than intelligent design.
Posted by: Ogre at September 26, 2005 08:42 PM (iJFc9)
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Ok...LOL...uh huh....way cool....
WAY above my head but it was fun to read. LOL
Posted by: Raven at September 27, 2005 09:06 AM (h80AX)
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I tried to keep it simple, but sometimes some "stuff" is just too complex! Thanks for stopping by.
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2005 09:53 AM (/k+l4)
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Very nicely done Ogre.
Allah has 72 virgins waiting for his warriors, we just don't have the science yet to prove it yet. I think these are recycled virgins though..
Posted by: Michael at September 27, 2005 09:56 AM (JUnMB)
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Thank you, Michael. But "recycled virgins?" That's beyond comprehension there...
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2005 09:59 AM (/k+l4)
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Ogre, I do believe you have found your niche. That was awesome. Now, if you do it more often you will have to take time from eating neighborhood children and stray dogs and cats....but think of eating troll sammiches instead and keep this up.... great post amigo.
Posted by: GM Roper at September 27, 2005 11:21 AM (3+aU1)
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Thanks, GM!
I'm shooting for about once a week. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just trying to analyze the science using science. I see large holes in various aspects of science and I'm just trying to point them out to see if anyone else can see them.
Posted by: Ogre at September 27, 2005 12:56 PM (/k+l4)
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"...to believe naturalism actually takes much more faith than intelligent design."
Not sure I follow. To believe in that which by definition is *not* supernatural requires more faith than to believe in the supernatural (i.e., ID)? Within that framework, I don't doubt that you'll find all sorts of ways to poke holes in science.
Posted by: Beaming Visionary at September 28, 2005 01:42 PM (/f2f8)
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The faith I'm mentioning here is faith in the idea that despite an actual probability of zero for the universe forming completely at random, one believes that it did. To me, it requires more faith to believe in that than it does to believe that there was someone, or something, the designed it.
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2005 01:47 PM (/k+l4)
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The probability that a designer which was not itself designed by a more complex or intelligent entity could have arisen ex nihilo is also zero. No matter where people go with this, regardless of whether their beliefs are supernatural, material or both, they're going to run afoul of the same issue.
But that aside, there are too many flawed assumptions in your estimates to make them worthwhile. The most egregious is noting that if given physical or astronomical properties or quantities were off by just a tiny amount, life could not exist. What this does is presume that life and its parameters and requirements came first, and that the universe arose around it in a way that just happened to conform to life's needs.
What you're ignoring is obvious: By definition, any life that exists can by definition thrive only under extant conditions. There are a million other potential values for G and the masses of subatomic particles and the electric charges of atoms, and had any these been in place five billion years ago, life, had it arisen on earth, would simply be different in subtle or perhaps powerful ways.
In other words, your probablity model only makes sense if one assumes that the types of lifeforms seen on the earth of today are the only lifeforms that could possibly exist. Clearly, this is specious reasoning.
To ilustrate: Which is more likely?
1. God created man, which can only tolerate temperatures between about 0 F and 100 F, and then placed the earth just far enough from the sun to yield these conditions; or
2. The earth, being 93 million miles from the sun and with a pronounced axis tilt, gave rise to creatures and *only* to creatures suited to its own conditions.
It's a no-brainer, a simple matter of keeping causes distinct from effects.
Posted by: Beaming Visionary at September 28, 2005 02:13 PM (/f2f8)
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Then again, I never mentioned life in this example. In this example, I'm specifically speaking of physics and matter. There is no mention of life nor God.
So the probability of THIS universe being created by random chance is still zero. There's no possibility.
You're getting the point when you see that no matter what your belief system, it all has to start somewhere -- and some sort of intelligent designer, whether it's God or an alien named V-Ger doesn't matter -- simple random chance is not a reasonable explanation.
Yes, there are many other possibilities for the value of the strong nuclear force -- and EVERY ONE OTHER THAN THE CURRENT ONE RESULTS IN NO MATTER. None. Nothing exists.
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2005 02:42 PM (/k+l4)
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"You're getting the point when you see that no matter what your belief system, it all has to start somewhere -- and some sort of intelligent designer, whether it's God or an alien named V-Ger doesn't matter -- simple random chance is not a reasonable explanation."
No, an inteligent designer is not a sine qua non of this sort of construct. In fact, when this discussion is run against the edge of Occam's razor, purely material causes make more sense, because otherwise an endless recursive loop is set up wherein a designer requires a designer requires a designer...etc.
"I never mentioned life in this example."
Except when you wrote:
"...if the relative mass of protons vs. neutrons was off by even just 0.0001%, not only could life not exist, but matter itself couldn't exist...If this force were weaker, say 1/100th of it's actual strength, then protons would repel one another in the nucleus of atoms -- again making neither life nor even matter possible...The slightest change in either of these forces would change our sun into a blue giant or a red dwarf -- ensuring no life on the planet earth."
That is why I what I based my previous post on.
There are other problems with your assumptions -- among them the fact that what you label "randomness" is in the real world substituted by molecules' and subatomic particles' adherence to known physicochemical laws, and other conflations of chance events and predictable outcomes -- but as you've decided for yourself that a designer was behind it all, I won't try to dissuade you. This sort of thing isn't irksome anyway when not co-opted by Intelligent Design proponents who can be demonstrated to talk out of their arses at every opportunity.
One day a designing force may indeed turn out to be the best explanation, but this sort of modeling, while an interesting thought exercise, falls shy of being explanatory (as do the best cosmological arguments available to date, actually).
Posted by: Beaming Visionary at September 28, 2005 02:54 PM (/f2f8)
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The materialist viewpoint runs up against the exact same problem as the creator -- where did the first material come from?
But, I'm glad we finally agree-- nothing can effectively explain the creation of matter (and life). That's all I want to point out -- that there's a possibility that materialists are not correct, and there's clear data and evidence to show that theirs MIGHT not be the right way.
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2005 03:04 PM (/k+l4)
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(And have you noticed the really cool Google ads for all sorts of neat, physics-related stuff on this page?)
Posted by: Ogre at September 28, 2005 03:05 PM (/k+l4)
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September 15, 2005
Macro- vs. Micro- Part II
A few days ago, I wrote a post about
micro- versus macro-evolution. As you might imagine, it stirred up quite a debate regarding creation and intelligent design. That wasn't my purpose. I was simply trying to come to an agreement on what some specific terms mean.
However, Contagion said:
Who said anything about separating the two, personally I think there is no difference. It's all part of the same process.
This is one of the ideas that I'm trying to point out. They are not the same.
I'll put details in the extended entry for those who just aren't all that interested...
more...
Posted by: Ogre at
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1
How about this:
"A fundamental category of taxonomic classification, ranking below a genus or subgenus and consisting of related organisms capable of interbreeding."
If they can't interbreed, they're not the same species.
Should work, at least for purposes of the discussion.
Personally, I can imagine that, after enough accumulated mutations, some varieties within a species could become so different than other varieties, that they would no longer be able to interbreed, and thus have to be considered separate species.
Posted by: Harvey at September 15, 2005 08:33 PM (ubhj8)
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That's one definition of it -- and there's zero evidence that any species has evolved enough to breed with another species. It's certainly never been observed.
Posted by: Ogre at September 16, 2005 05:44 AM (iJFc9)
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September 13, 2005
uniformitarianism
According to
Wikipedia:
Uniformitarianism is one of the most basic principles of modern geology, the observation that fundamentally the same geological processes that operate today also operated in the distant past
This is the basis of much of today's physical science. It is presented in most basic geology and physical science classes, often as one of the first laws of science. In my experience, there is little discussion about this word.
However, even the basic definition given above is flawed. It claims that uniformitarianism is "observation" -- but then it applies that observation to the distant past. That's not possible.
Uniformitarianism says that everything you see happening today has always happened. In other words, it say that the rate at which water flows downhill is constant and has never changed. It presumes all physical laws, such as the speed of light, are what they are and have never been different. It presumes that gravity has always been at the exact rate it is today.
Now this rule certainly seems simple. In your lifetime, I'm sure that you can observe the same physical rules happening over and over again. You can observe the sedimentation rate of sediment in a stream. You can easily make predictions of ocean currents, rates of erosion, and many other related observations.
This is what modern science has done -- made observations and tested them to see if they hold true. They have found many laws that apply to various physical characteristics that always hold true -- as long as they are tested. The same experiments always give the same results because the rules do not change.
To me, I see this as rather self-centered. Just because physical rules have not changed in your lifetime, or even in the last hundred or two hundred years of observation does not mean they have never been different. Consider for a moment, what if this rule isn't true?
What if all the currently discovered laws of physics haven't always been true? What if, at some time thousands of years ago, gravity was different? What if the laws of thermodynamics have only applied for two thousand years? What if gravity didn't exist 5,000 years ago?
ALL of today's science is based on a complete and total belief in uniformitarianism. If uniformitarianism isn't completely, 100% true, a large portion of "known" science might not be true, too. Just consider it -- what are the possibilities if man simply cannot know everything?
Now there's no direct evidence that refutes uniformitarianism -- just as there is no direct evidence that uniformitarianism is true. It's just presented and accepted as fact, without debate. But what if it's wrong?
There actually now are some scientists that claim that this may be the case. They describe that the speed of light -- the basis of much of physics -- might not actually be constant. What if all the physical processes we see today were actually different at some time in the past?
Posted by: Ogre at
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1
Berry Setterfield and Trevor Norman have been saying that light is slowing down for years. Ever since the speed of light was determined to be finite in the 17th century, people have been measuring its speed. Even accounting for margins of error, the observed speeds have been declining ever since, and seem to be leveling off now (the bottom of the curve).
The "scientific community" is resisting the evidence with every fiber of their being, since the speed of light is the basis for so many calcuations, including radiological dating. If light is slowing down, so is radiological decay, which would mean that ages are actually much shorter than are measured.
This is one of the many reasons I have given up on naturalism and evolution. It doesn't take things like this into accout, and actually chastises anyone who raises the question. And science is supposed to be about asking questions.
Posted by: Echo Zoe at September 13, 2005 04:34 PM (K+h36)
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You hit it on the head -- those who support naturalism and evolution will not even consider asking questions. So much just has to be accepted -- even more than having faith in a creator, if you ask me. I'm just trying to get people to acknowledge that questions can be asked.
Posted by: Ogre at September 13, 2005 05:02 PM (iJFc9)
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Ogre, I'm disappointed. "Those who support naturalism and evolution will not even consider asking questions." That is a very bold and unsupported statement. I know many individuals, including myself, that support naturalism and evolution that do ask questions. We base our decisions on information on hand Theories, tests and data.
I can't believe you of all people would make such an inaccurate statement when you lambast others that do the same thing.
Being narrow minded is a two way street.
Posted by: Contagion at September 13, 2005 08:52 PM (e8b4J)
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Sorry, I misspoke.
What I meant was that
those who initially created and supported naturalism and the naturalistic theory created their theory intentionally to refute intelligent design and creationism, and would not permit any questioning of their theory.
Sorry about that, I didn't mean to point it to all current supporters of naturalism.
Posted by: Ogre at September 13, 2005 08:55 PM (iJFc9)
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Brilliant Post - not too many people are posting on this topic. It's a simple post hoc fallacy that you've uncovered in the last few paragraphs. I know your readers will take away that salient point. Great Post! Great Blog - dig the graphics!
Posted by: patd95 at September 13, 2005 09:39 PM (/KuBm)
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Thanks for stopping by, Patd95! One of my main points on this site it to make people think.
Posted by: Ogre at September 13, 2005 10:02 PM (iJFc9)
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I don't mind questioning, as long as there's a good reason to do so.
I don't understand astrophysics well enough to know if they have a good reason, or if this is just another "cold fusion" moment.
Posted by: Harvey at September 15, 2005 08:40 PM (ubhj8)
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So you have those, too, huh?
Posted by: Ogre at September 16, 2005 05:46 AM (iJFc9)
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The sound bite you reference is overly simplistic and misleading. If you read scholarly work in geology (e.g., Gould's publications on the topic published in the American Journal of Science, in the 1980's), you will find that Uniformitarianism is NOT treated as a law. There are many facets to uniformitarianism. The gradualism of Lyell is not something accepted by geologists, but is a matter to be tested in individual situations. "the present is the key to the past", means e.g., "in the absence of evidence to the contrary, delta sediments of the past probably formed in environments similar to where we find delta sediments forming today". If there is evidence to the contrary, this principle is abandoned. It is a only principle, and clearly does not hold in many cases discussed commonly in the geological literature (e.g., mass extinction events by e.g., bolide impact). The methodological uniformitarianism you refer to, re: the rate of radioactivie decay, F=ma, etc, again is just common sense (and, that is all science really is, anyway - at least the way I have practiced it): if there is no reason to believe that Newton's Laws or the speed of light have not varied significantly over time, then assume they have been constant. This is a warrant for inductive inference. Without this, you could not be sure your house did not turn into a circus overnight! It is really just Occam's razor - the principle of parsimony. Common Sense.
Your comments about the constancy of the speed of light refelct one other element of common sense that your consideration decidedly lacks: extraordinary propositions require extraordinary evidence. This was true for Darwin's ideas in the 1859, and it is true now about challenging relativistic physics.
Peace,
Individ
Posted by: Individ at September 16, 2005 11:21 PM (SRudZ)
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You're correct -- and that's my point. Uniformitarianism is generally accepted. There may never be any way to prove if it is true or not, so it's just accepted. even mass extinction events presume that it is true.
I'm not suggesting that I have any evidence that shows it's not true, I'm just speculating -- what if it's NOT true? There is, quite obviously, no way to prove it's true, just as there's no way to prove it's NOT true.
There does seem to be some evidence that's showing up today that shows the speed of light might not be a constant. If it's not, then this idea might not be right -- which means a very large portion of the accepted history of the earth might be completely, scientifically verifiably, wrong!
In general, and in specific scientific readings, there are almost no refernces to any suggestions that uniformitarianism is wrong, or even questioned -- it is always just accepted. Even reading Gould's work, as I have many times, I've not seen it questioned -- if you know of any, I would like to read them.
Posted by: Ogre at September 17, 2005 08:50 AM (iJFc9)
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So is it weathering, sediment depositing, radioactive decay of elements, tree ring growth or what that you feel was so much faster in the past? Since so many of these geological dating methods (and others) overlap and yet corroborate each other (dating methods from biology like gene mutation rates also happening to conspire in favor of the modern scientific time line), it seems that you would need to assume that every process in geology , biology and physics was faster in the past in order to make the young earth foolishness stick.
"If uniformitarianism isn't completely, 100% true, a large portion of "known" science might not be true, too. Just consider it -- what are the possibilities if man simply cannot know everything?"
Even if that were true, is it really so likely that all of the engineering feats that are based on the laws of physics, from bridge construction to oil rigs (they find oil and mineral wealth by using modern geology and its dating methods are an important part of that methodology) to nuclear power plants are working on principles that really are just guesses and hunches by people who spend their lives studying things that are just all made up?
Is it not more likely that people who complain about naturalism and uniformitarianism (the inconvenient properties of the natural world) are just trying in vain to salvage a pack of tribal myths which they take as fact rather than as simply sacred stories; myths which, if they were told by people with dark skin, would have been laughed at as primitive tales?
Staffs don't turn into snakes and eat each other even if you are a prophet from God or an Egyptian magician. Snakes do not talk. Donkeys do not talk. A world covering flood would not leave a pristine ecosystem for rescued species to flourish in. The world is not 6,000 to 10,000 years old. Con-men and cult leaders put on faith healer shows all the time so why is it so hard to believe that this happened 2000 years ago?
Is hanging on to an ontology from thousands of years ago so important that people are willing to believe anything in order to salvage them? Why are people willing to believe that every field of inquiry... astronomy, geology, genetics, ecology, evolutionary biology, paleontology, archeology to name just a few, are practiced by either complete morons or conspirators? Most of these scientists are from western culture and many of them are Christians themselves. Is it really likely that they have all been, and continue to be hoodwinked into ignoring the "reality" of a literal Bible? And that only a few brave souls dare decry the falsehood by rewriting those laws of physics which they find inconvenient?
Posted by: Ann K. at September 17, 2005 11:10 PM (pcRow)
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Ann, you missed my point. I did not say any one of those was faster OR SLOWER in the past. All of those processes, do, however, depend 100% on on the theory of uniformitarianism. I simply asked the question, "What if we're wrong?"
And no, nothing based on today's laws of physics need to be wrong if we're wrong about the past. They're completely unreleated.
I never mentioned ANYTHING about God, YOU did.
YOU are simply decided that everything you are told by scientists today is absolute truth. I bet you would have blindly defended the scientists that were positive that earth was flat, and other scientists of their day that were absolutely sure that the sun revolved around the earth, too.
I just tried to ask one simple question about science, and you violently attacked me making assumptions about me and attacking others' religions. How about opening your mind?
Posted by: Ogre at September 18, 2005 09:11 AM (iJFc9)
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Oh, and Contagion? Note Ann as the more typical reaction from a naturalist, as I was speaking of in comment #2.
Posted by: Ogre at September 18, 2005 09:12 AM (iJFc9)
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September 12, 2005
Micro- vs. Macro- Evolution
Evolution is a lot of things to a lot of people. Darwin's theory of evolution is what most often comes to mind. At the same time, few people understand what it is that was actually proposed. Darwin proposed that all living creatures, and by extension, matter itself, had come from previous, simpler substances. He failed to address where this endless cycle began.
However, today there are various facets of evolution. One area in which people may become confused is when comparing macro evolution and micro evolution. Micro evolution can be observed today, while macro evolution is a theory that simply cannot be observed.
Micro evolution is the idea that all species experience mutations and can have genetic adaptations. However, micro evolution, as observed, shows that the mutations and adaptations only occur within a species. Each mutation and adaptation is designed and works to keep the species the same as itself.
In other words, when a dog mutates, it will change and adapt, and it will remain a dog. No matter how many adaptations and mutations occur, it will always remain a dog, and will never sprout wings or gills. All current mutations and adaptations observed fit into that category of evolution.
Macro evolution, on the other hand, says that adaptations and mutations exist, occur, and allow new species to form. This sort of evolution proposes that the DNA in individual animals and plants change from one creature to another -- from a dog to a bird, for example.
Macro evolution has never been observed in any way, shape, or form. However, when speaking of science in schools and teaching evolution, this is the type of evolution that is addressed. Darwin's theory of evolution is this type, and it is still taught in schools -- despite zero observation or true scientific evidence.
Posted by: Ogre at
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Not to mention all the hoaxes and lies in the theory that have been disproven. Good, simple explanation for such a complex subject.
Posted by: Jay at September 12, 2005 10:23 AM (2FcUc)
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Thanks, Jay. I'm just trying to make a complex subject simple to understand to get people thinking.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 10:49 AM (/k+l4)
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Learn before you speak:
http://talkorigins.org
Posted by: coturnix at September 12, 2005 12:56 PM (I1kb9)
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I have seen that site. Was there anything specific about it you wanted to point out?
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 01:00 PM (/k+l4)
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Of course, Gravity is only a "theory" and has never been observed either.
Posted by: Denny Hix at September 12, 2005 01:05 PM (LQJdM)
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Drop your keyboard, Denny, and tell me what you observe.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 01:12 PM (/k+l4)
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I think my favorite part of that site, coturnix, is where the author first claims that "Creationism fails to be a theory" because it's "not useful;" then declares that you can only refute the theory of evolution if "the evidence ... fits another theory better."
So in other words, he's making the rules and you're not allowed to disagree with them, no matter what might be reality or observed -- or, two is not a number, and I've decided that 1+1=5. You cannot claim I'm wrong unless you can come up with a better number.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 01:26 PM (/k+l4)
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Evolution is a theory and should be taught as a theory, not fact. However, I do believe that the theory of evolution is correct.
Posted by: Contagion at September 12, 2005 03:53 PM (Q5WxB)
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And you have worded that correctly -- you can believe that theory if you like. Over the next few months, on a very irregular basis, I'll see if I can convince you otherwise.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 03:56 PM (/k+l4)
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You can try, however most people that have only ended up making me do more research to strengthen my oppinion.
Posted by: Contagion at September 12, 2005 04:23 PM (Q5WxB)
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That's always the sign of a good debate -- and just keep in mind macro- vs. micro-evolution.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 04:59 PM (iJFc9)
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Who said anything about seperating the two, personally I think there is no difference. It's all part of the same process.
Posted by: Contagion at September 12, 2005 06:44 PM (e8b4J)
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This sounds like it is going to be interesting. Can't wait to hear (see) more of your thoughts on this. BTW, I like the color separation of the comments.
Posted by: vw bug at September 12, 2005 07:06 PM (J3xJ9)
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Well thanks! I experimented quite a bit before I settled on the alternating backgrounds.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 07:23 PM (iJFc9)
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If that's the case, Contagion, then I can agree that evolution does happen, and it is completely observed and tested. Of course, that's on the micro-evolution scale, as defined above.
Posted by: Ogre at September 12, 2005 07:24 PM (iJFc9)
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Right on about micro- vs. macro-evolution. I think my favorite example of evolutionary reasoning is from my college geology class. We were taught that "trilobite" fossils found in the "Ludicrous" layer were "450,000" years old because that is how old that layer was dated at. The funny thing is we were also taught that said "Ludicrous" layer was "450,000" years old because--yup, you guessed it--there were "trilobites" found in it. (Note: It may not have been trilobites and Ludicrous and 450,000 years ago--I remembered the fallacy, not the specifics.)
Needless to say, the "theory" of evolution is rife with shoddy science and half-baked ideas taught as absolute truth, not theory. To those who hold to evolution as dogma, I say: Fine, teach evolution if you must, but do teach it as theory, not fact, and present other theories from which people can draw their own conclusions. If you choose to deny the Bibical creation account, at least look into the intelligent design theory. There's a lot of very highly-respected scientists who, the more they learn about the universe and our own little planet, are finding themselves forced to admit intelligent design is a very real possibility.
A great book on this is "The Case for a Creator" by Lee Strobel.
As one songwriter put it, "It takes a lot of faith to say we're accidents of nature."
Posted by: nessili at September 12, 2005 11:05 PM (eItn5)
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Thanks, Nessili! And even more interesting (at least to me) is the people who initially promoted that theory -- they had a specific agenda in mind and were predisposed to their own answer -- they refused to even consider any other possibility -- as many still do today.
Posted by: Ogre at September 13, 2005 05:48 AM (iJFc9)
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At the site I linked to above, go to FAQs. Choose the topics: "theory", "macroevolution" and others.
You are using the term "theory" incorrectly, as in "hunch", or "hypothesis", which is a colloquial way of useing the word, while in science it has a very specitific definition, that of a very large and well supported body of knowledge. Evolutionary theory is actually BETTER supported by evidence than the theory of gravity.
Difference between micro and macro evolution is quantitative, not qualitative, and a number of cases of what you call macroevolution have been observed both in the lab and in nature.
Posted by: coturnix at September 13, 2005 08:17 AM (I1kb9)
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But that points to the site's claim I outlined above -- evolution is a theory that is supported by evidence, and no one can question that theory unless they have a better theory -- and then they claim intelligent design is not a theory.
That's like me telling you that I'm right unless you can prove me wrong, only you're not allowed to prove me wrong because you're wrong.
That site attempt to describe rules that define anything other than evolution as wrong, by definition. That's how people who support evolution normally support it -- everything else is automatically wrong and simply cannot be considered because evolution is right just because. That's a very weak argument.
And I would seriously love to see any example of any species mutating into another species. I've never heard of anything like that. When has a horse mutated into a dolphin?
Posted by: Ogre at September 13, 2005 10:52 AM (/k+l4)
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Well, i've seen an OGRE transform real times in para universe comes a cat like lightening connecting sole.
Questening misspelled...
who is that ...
a soft sound???/
no
it's analogin ;>
Posted by: ml at September 14, 2005 12:58 AM (kwO4l)
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A sphincter says what?
Posted by: Ogre at September 14, 2005 05:59 AM (iJFc9)
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