Homespun Blogger Symposium XXXIII
Time again for the weekly
Homespun Blogger Symposium. Each week the
Homespun Bloggers ask a question of the members of that group and those who desire to can respond on their own blog to the question.
Links are posted to others' answers to the questions. Feel free to join in!
This week's question:
How do "we" eliminate the "deep, persistent poverty having roots in racial discrimination" such as we've seen in the Gulf Coast region over the past three weeks?
I question the question. The premise of the question is simply wrong. The question assumes that "we" CAN eliminate poverty, and it claims that poverty is caused by racial discrimination. I'm sorry, but both of those positions are simply wrong.
Poverty is a result of personal choices.
This is America, 2005. There is NOT institutional racism that keeps people from getting ahead simply because they are black. If that were true, there would be NO blacks in any positions of power. If there is rampant, institutional racism that causes poverty, someone explain to me how
Stanley O'Neal became Chief Operating Officer of Merrill Lynch;
Ken Chenault become Chief Executive Officer of American Express;
Richard Parsons became Chief Executive Officer of AOL Time Warner;
Franklin Raines became Chief Executive Officer of Fannie Mae;
Thomas Jones became Chief Executive Officer of Global Investments for Citigroup;
Bruce Gordon became the President of Retail Markets for Verizon;
Adebayo Ogunlesi became the Head of Investment Banking for First Boston;
Calvin Darden became Senior Vice President of Operations for UPS;
Vernon Jordon became Senior Managing Director for Lazard LLC;
Oprah Winfrey became Chairman and CEO of Harpo, Inc;
Lloyd Trotter became President and CEO of General Electric;
John Thompson became CEO of Symantec;
William Lewis became Head of Banking for Morgan Stanley;
Ray Wilkins became Group President for SBC Communications;
Alfred Zollar became General Manager of Lotus Software for IBM;
Eula Adams became Senior Executive Vice President for First Data Corp;
Arnold Donald became CEO for Merisant;
Myrtle Potter became the Chief Operating Officer for Genenetech;
Rod Adkins became General Manager of Pervasive Computing for IBM;
Brenda Gaines became President of the Diners Club of North America?
Every single one of those listed above are blacks. If being black causes poverty, then how is this possible? Simple -- it's not. Your race has nothing to do with whether you live in poverty -- your personal choices do.
However, if you choose to drink alcohol, do drugs, have unprotected sex, drop out of high school, have sex before marriage, raise children without a father, collect welfare instead of working, then you are going to live in poverty, no matter your race!
Poverty is caused by personal choices, not by race or racial discrimination.
The question also presumes that "we" can eliminate poverty. Poverty cannot be eliminated on this world. Anyone who thinks otherwise is simply wrong, and has not looked at attempts throughout the history of man to do so. No one has ever come close.
There have been attempts to eliminate poverty. All of them have been horrible, horrible experiments ending in the deaths of millions of innocent people. When one attempts to eliminate poverty, it is always done without the basic understanding of the source of poverty as outlined above.
This is a basic misunderstanding of people that has been around since various philosophers confused people and rejected God. Once philosophers set up man as God and defined the world around man, these same philosophers decided that man was inherently good. If man was good then evil and bad could only come from environment.
Therefore, if there is evil in the world, it is society that is creating that evil, not individuals. If society has created the evil, then government can right the evil using force and everyone will be good once again. This is the basis of all liberal, socialist, and communist governments -- that man is good and society causes all evil.
Under this belief system, no one can be held responsible for their own actions, because they didn't do anything wrong -- they only did wrong because society and those around him forced him to do wrong.
This is completely backwards thinking. Instead, man is inherently lazy and evil. People have to work hard to defeat that evil and do good. People have the entire responsibility of their own actions. People can choose to be good and do right, or people can choose to be evil and do wrong. People can choose the options that will lead them to poverty, or they can choose options that lead them out of poverty.
Once you understand that poverty is the result of personal, individual choices and decisions, you realize there is only one way to eliminate it: take away those choices.
Socialist and communist ideas often focus on the elimination of poverty. Unfortunately, a large majority of America today apparently also believes that it is possible to eliminate poverty. It has been tried, and it has failed. To truly eliminate poverty, a government, through the application of force, would have to eliminate the choices that lead to poverty.
To attempt to eliminate poverty, government would have to ban alcohol. They'd have to interdict all commerce across the border to ensure no drugs would enter the country. They would have to scan and analyze every square inch of the surface area of the country constantly to ensure no drugs were grown or created.
Government would have to force everyone to attend school for 16 or more years and ensure that every single student learned. Those who were not capable of learning would have to be eliminated or given large amounts of cash for their entire life.
Government would have to regulate not only families, but sex between adults. Government would be required to ensure that sex only occurred from completely disease-free adults that were having sex to procreate in the bounds of a marriage.
If something happened to one of the adults in the marriage, the government would have to intervene and force another adult to join the marriage. The government would have to ensure all the marriages were between two people who cared about themselves, each other, the family, and were happy.
Of course, to do all this would take HUGE amounts of money. Since government does not have any money, government would have to take that money from people who produce. Those who did not produce would get larger and larger amounts of cash from the producers. If a person stopped producing, they would simply get cash anyway.
With government severely punishing those who produce, the number of non-producers would continue to grow. At some point, the system would collapse, as the producers reached a point where they could not support the non-producers.
This has been tried before by governments around the world and throughout history. In fact, America has tried this in one way or another with Lyndon Johnson's "War on Poverty." How's that working out? There are more people in poverty now than there ever have been.
No one on this earth can stop poverty.
Most of the current attempts to "end poverty" by government actually does the opposite and encourages and increases poverty. Giving people money for not working only acts as incentive to continue to not work. It doesn't matter how little money it is -- when a person is provided with housing for free and cash for free, they would rather do nothing than work -- especially when most of the entry-level jobs are hard work.
When people are shown that there are no consequences to their actions, they have no incentive to stop doing that action -- giving drug addicts free counseling, free housing, free medical care, and even free needles only encourages them to continue their habits and choices which continue to hold them in the grip of poverty.
Trying to stop poverty is impossible. To attempt to try and stop it is wrong because any attempt will take away freedom from those not in poverty and freedom of choice for those in poverty.
(This post linked to: GM's Birthday Party, Euphoric Reality's drop zone, Basil's Lunch, and Outside the Beltway.
Posted by: Ogre at
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1
You are absolutely right about attempting to eliminate poverty itself. However, to eliminate for yourself is great. And to offer opportunity to help others eliminate for theirself, if you have that opportunity to offer is fine. But, the only thing that can stop poverty is the determination of the person in poverty.
Posted by: Jay at September 20, 2005 10:38 PM (xmvb0)
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Ogre, how can you say that race has absolutley nothing to do with poverty? That is ridiculous considering that Black people were recognized as inferior just 40 years ago. The days of German Shepards and fire hoses disrupting peaceful demonstrations are in the not too distant past. Assuming that the civil rights act made people legally equal, you must allow that rampant racism still exists in this country. Most importantly, the fact that such a high percentage of African Americans live in poverty can only have one of two explanations. The first is that a combination of social and economic factors have stacked the odds against them, or that they as a race are inferior. The latter, of course, is simply unacceptable and ludacris.
Posted by: Brian at September 21, 2005 02:10 AM (qe/Un)
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Jay, yes, individuals can help, but government can only hurt.
Brian, I outlined above exactly how I can say that. If being black causes poverty, how can all those people be worth tens of millions of dollars EACH? ALL those people I listed in this post are BLACK, yet they aren't in poverty.
If you believe that social and economic factors cause people to be black, racist, and poor, how in the world is it that those people aren't?
The odds aren't stacked against them at all. They have all the opportunities that other people have. ANYONE who makes the poor lifestyle choices is going to be poor -- and those choices have nothing to do with skin color.
The high percentage of African Americans in poverty can be explained one other way that you didn't list: those people made bad decisions in life. There is NOT rampant, institutional racism today! That simply is NOT true. If those 20 names I listed above aren't enough of an example to prove that, I'll list 100 more blacks who are successful.
Posted by: Ogre at September 21, 2005 05:51 AM (iJFc9)
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Ogre, let me take one of your statements a bit further.
People make "bad decisions in life". I do, you do, Brian does, Jay does. Where I have a problem is the government taking money out of my wallet, under the threat of force, to subsidize or to relinquish from responsibility those people that voluntarily make bad decisions.
Poor lifestyle choices lead to poor lifestyles. If you don't want to wallow in a poor lifestyle then do not make poor lifestyle choices. And don't ask me to constantly bail you out of such choices.
If you do not produce something meaningful to the community, through your job or through your volunteering, then why do you expect the community to furnish you with products, including money?
Please tell me how abusing, doing drugs, having unprotected sex, dropping out of high school, having sex before marriage, raising children without a father, and collecting welfare instead of working are benefits to the community? How has the community prospered or grown with you doing such voluntary actions? Therefore why is it that by doing the above voluntary actions you deem yourself worthy and entitled to receive products back form the community? On the contrary I say that if the community finds you guilty of any of the above voluntary actions you release yourself from reaping any benefits from the community and do not hold the community responsible for your lifestyle.
If you don't graduate high school you release yourself from having any company in the community having, under governmental law, to hire you. If you have babies out of wedlock then you release yourself from having any agency in the community, under governmental law, from having to provide you with products or money. If you do drugs then you release yourself from having any medical facility in the community from having, under governmental law, to provide you with medical assistance.
Not one of my above statements has anything to do with race - it should be applied to any guilty party regardless of race, gender, national origin, etc.
As for racism, unfortunately that has to be conquered one person at a time. Although the parents' teachings are a great start, it all boils down to one individual making one decision. I have done all I can to remove any prejudices from my home, but my three grown children will have to make their own decisions. I can only set an example for them.
I do believe that there is an "I was repressed, therefore I am entitled" mentality in the US. Those people that were once in the back of the line are no demanding that they be placed in the front of the line. Both actions are equally racist in practice, and therefore I tolerate neither. Since I do not place anyone behind me I get irritated when the government places someone in front of me.
Posted by: Shamalama at September 21, 2005 09:10 AM (TfBxJ)
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Extremely well said, Shamalama! That is an excellent response to those who support the community ideal.
And yes, that is something that makes many people angry and helps to divide this country (a goal of many people) -- the idea that some people work hard to get what they have while others do nothing and DEMAND that those who work provide for them.
I think people have really lost a grasp of history on this issue -- if people cannot survive without the "help" of the government, how did people start this country? How did people explore the west? How did people settle wild areas? People CAN survive without government and I still maintain that those who depend upon government are harmed much more than they are helped.
The only possible response from those who support massive government programs to your community is, "How can you say that people are not allowed to be part of your defined community?"
And you've already answered that -- they can if they CHOOSE to.
Posted by: Ogre at September 21, 2005 10:00 AM (/k+l4)
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So basically what your saying is that in general black people are prone to make bad decisions? A race does not make decisions an individual does. Tell me how the odds are not stacked against a black child born today in an urban environment. His father is gone, his mother works two jobs. On his way to school he sees nothing but drugs and violence. Temptation and danger surrounds him. These were not his choices, he is involved in a vicious cycle. Those names that you list mean nothing. Even if you did list 100 of them it is just a fraction of the names in the prison system. How does he have the same chance as a white suburban kid who doesnt have to deal with that. Also, there are undeniable overtones in your comments Ogre. Are you a racist?
Posted by: Brian at September 21, 2005 11:51 AM (qe/Un)
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Unlike you, Brian, I see people as people, not by their color. You clearly show that you decide who people are and what they do by the color of their skin. I do not. You are the one who brought race into the discussion. You are the one deciding that "black people make poor decisions." You are the racist.
What I said is that any person, white, black, red, yellow, green, or whatever, makes personal choices. Those personal choices have results and consequences.
You simply cannot blame a person for making bad choices because their "father is gone." The lack of a father does not mean you cannot make a good choice! If your mother works two jobs, are you forced to smoke crack? That's what you're implying, Brian.
In your example, the fictitional person can choose to do drugs or not. He can choose to participate in violence or not. They ARE his personal choices, whether you like it or not. How does he have the same chance? Because he's in America.
Posted by: Ogre at September 21, 2005 12:02 PM (/k+l4)
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Brian...you said:
So basically what your saying is that in general black people are prone to make bad decisions? A race does not make decisions an individual does. Tell me how the odds are not stacked against a black child born today in an urban environment. His father is gone, his mother works two jobs. On his way to school he sees nothing but drugs and violence. Temptation and danger surrounds him. These were not his choices, he is involved in a vicious cycle. Those names that you list mean nothing. Even if you did list 100 of them it is just a fraction of the names in the prison system. How does he have the same chance as a white suburban kid who doesnt have to deal with that. Also, there are undeniable overtones in your comments Ogre. Are you a racist?
Are you saying the blacks born in an urban (or any setting) can't break this cycle without government intervention? The scenario you painted is full of "personal choices" or what I'll call the religious concept of "free will." It doesn't matter if you're black, white or purple...making the choices that people make in these situations will ultimately lead to a continued reliance on government and the poverty that comes with it.
Are you advocating that the government "issue" a father to this fictional family? Are you advocating that the government force the children to school (and to do well mind you) at the point of a gun?
Free will and a desire to break the cycle WITHOUT any intervention is the only way it's going to happen.
See you on the high ground.
MajorDad1984
Posted by: MajorDad1984 at September 26, 2005 08:13 AM (tdEnf)
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Excellent points, MajorDad -- it is about choices and government intervention is opposed to choice -- it requires coercion.
Posted by: Ogre at September 26, 2005 01:28 PM (/k+l4)
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I completely agree with Brian. And I think that you are viewing the situation with rose colored glasses. You write as if it is easy to break out of such a cycle. When one is subjected to such depraved conditions one cannot just leave and become successful. In the hypothetical scenario that Brian mentioned: if the boy decided not to do drugs or get involved in violence and instead got a job, the boy would still be living in poverty. He would only be able to get a job that paid minimum wage because of his background, and all of his wages would not even be able to pay for all of his neccessities. It is not easy to move up the heirachy, contrary to what you think. I think that your comments reveal a naivite about you. If you don't believe me, then try to live just one week in an impoverished urban community and see how you fare.
Posted by: jane at October 09, 2005 10:37 PM (yvElO)
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So you're racist, too, jane? You agree that black people, as a race, make bad decisions?
I never said it was EASY to move out of poverty, just that it's not impossible. Then again, life isn't supposed to be easy.
Posted by: Ogre at October 10, 2005 06:06 AM (iJFc9)
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Where in any of my comments was there a racist remark? Where did I write that black people in general make bad decisions? Actually, my point was that it is extremely hard black people to obtain well-paying jobs, regardless of skill or talent (or good decisions). They are coerced into living in impoverished neighborhoods with an underprivileged school system. They are subjected to substandard education compared with white suburban children. Living in those conditions, how can one expect them to move past the poverty line, even if they do make the best decisions possible in their situation?
Posted by: jane at October 10, 2005 06:16 PM (yvElO)
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You agreed with Brian and Brian said that black people make bad decisions.
And sure, it's hard, but life isn't easy for anyone, no matter what their skin color. If they live in a bad neighborhood, why don't they work to get out? Why do they continue to make bad decisions? Why don't more make good decisions and change their neighborhoods?
How can I expect them to move? Because I expect them to make good decisions, just like anyone else. I don't see people by race. I don't care if they're black or white or green -- they can all make bad or good decisions.
Posted by: Ogre at October 10, 2005 08:34 PM (iJFc9)
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actually, brian said that "A race does not make decisions an individual does" so i dont know where you got the idea that brian was saying black people in general make bad decisions. And contrary to what you think, race does matter. Whether black people are being directly discriminated or not, there is still an inherent white privilege in society. And this white privilege disadvantages people of color. Of course people work to get out of their bad neighborhoods and bad situations, but because of unalterable circumstances they cannot.
Posted by: jane at October 10, 2005 09:45 PM (yvElO)
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I strongly disagree. Race does not matter. People are people. I refuse to say that blacks are not capable of making good decisions, as you seem to imply, Jane.
Where is this "white priviledge" that you see? How is a white person more capable of deciding not use to drugs than a black person? What is it about the skin color of a person that prevents them from deciding to get pregnant? How "black" does a person have to be to be incapable of deciding NOT to commit a crime?
Posted by: Ogre at October 10, 2005 09:52 PM (iJFc9)
16
I think it is important to acknowledge the socialization of children in urban,poor communities. In many cases (of course not all, as has been pointed out with the listing of successful persons) the values are missing that are necessary to rise above poverty. For example, if I were to have grown up in a household where my mother sold her body for crack, collected a welfare check for my seven brothers and sisters, and my father was in prison, how would I have known to value hard work?
Who is responsible for teaching these values to a child if the parent(s) are unwilling or incapable? How would a child learn patterns of good behavior, if all that can be seen around them is bad behavior?
It is certainly not the current role of schools in urban communities; they are more focused on crowd control than education. Some people might say it is the role of the church-but how will this message get to the child whose parents are too drugged up to take their child to church? Social workers aren't going to do it consistently either; many of them are too afraid to enter certain communities.
How will I know what the opportunities are if I am not exposed to them? If my family and friends all live a certain way, won't I learn the behavior (the bad decision making) from them? By the time I am an adult, I have accepted this way of life because it is now internalized. Furthermore, if my mother and my peers tell me that the system is against me and I will never rise above this way of life, what will motivate me to prove them wrong? Why would I even doubt them?
It is easy to say that it is people's fault that they are poor. As I have pointed out, what we consider deviant and bad decision making may be considered normal in many urban communities. If you know of an influence that is consistently instilling values such as hard work, community responsibility and self-sufficiency in urban children, you can correct me. But, as I see it, until someone does, we will continue to see a pattern of "like father-like son" bad-decision making. Not because it is their own choice,but because they have accepted this as the norm.
Posted by: Jen at October 14, 2005 01:35 AM (OLcEC)
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You're completely right, Jen, but if you say that and you're white then you're a racist. If you say that and you're black, you're an "Uncle Tom."
You're saying the right things, but the people in trouble do not want to accept responsibility for themselves, and their "leaders" are more interested in power than helping people.
Posted by: Ogre at October 14, 2005 05:47 AM (iJFc9)
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