1 His insanity is disconcerting to rational folk. He should stick to helping the lower middle class find Jaezus and feel better about their diminishing plight. Either that, or get whisked away to God with his 100 thousand raptors. Even conservatives are calling him a kook. His time has come and gone.

2 Disclaimer: I am NO fan of Rev. Robertson. Christians are held to a higher standard - it's that simple. It doesn't bother me that we're not more critical of the Saudis. It would freak people out to find out the finer points of Wahhbism which is the controlling influence over Islam in Saudi Arabia.

3 I'm just wondering what is was most about that statement that bothered people. Is it that people are offended that God might actually punish people on Earth, or that Robertson said that Sharon was being punished.

4 And good point, Justin.

5 So Smokey, is the offensiveness the idea that God might actually punish people who oppose him on earth, then?

6 "Is it that people are offended that God might actually punish people on Earth,..." I'd say a definite yes on that. Robertson takes more of an Old Testament view toward God which most people want to forget. According to the OT, when Israel first approached the land God set aside for them, 12 spies were sent in to check it out. 10 said forget it, we'll never beat those Canaanites. 2 said go for it. Because of their negativity, Israel wandered 40 years in the desert until the "negative" generation died off. The Book of Judges is all about the years Israel "forgot" about God, was punished, remembered, forgot again, got punished again, etc. etc. We Christians prefer the "gentle Jesus meek and mild" image, forgetting we should read/learn from the WHOLE of scripture. Naturally people hate the idea of being punished for what they do "wrong." It's not fair, for some reason. That's why so many try to get our courts to sanction what they know (in their secret hearts) is just plain wrong.

7 I tend to agree with you, Harrison -- people are offended by even the IDEA that God might punish people for wrongdoing today.

8 I think Pat's statement is troubling also in that it limits God. Pat says that Sharon was "dividing God's land" well all land is God's land. If you believe that God wants the Jews to have all of historical Israel, right now, by taking it by military force from the Palestinians that it is still 'the JewÂ’s land'. Pat's statement is sort of comes out God = Zionists. Which really bothers me. It also bothers me that he feels willing to say what GodÂ’s will is. If Pat Robertson knows what GodÂ’s will is than he is a prophet and he should not have apologized. But because he did apologize we know that was just his own opinion and that makes him a false prophet and an embarrassment to Christianity. Pat Robertson is the leftÂ’s favorite Christian leader. The fact that he makes statements similar to these coming from Iran makes me sick at heart.

9 Interesting.

10 The reason for all the venom is twofold. 1) Pat Robertson counts around here. Who cares what some Saudi cleric says? Probably didn't make the news. 2) We're Christians. We're supposed to be above vengeful thoughts. Turn the other cheek, remember?

11 Vengeful thoughts? But does that mean that God cannot take his vengence on anyone on Earth today?

12 All land may belong to God, Mindflame, but accordin' to Scripture, He set Israel apart as His Special Place. He did all sorts of not-nice things to the Israelites who defiled/betrayed it. Small Town--if Christians are always supposed to turn the other cheek, then what the heck was Jesus doin' in the Temple tossin' around those moneylenders? D'ya'll realize the Bible (OT/NT combined) has more references to God's Wrath than to God's Love? Just askin'.

13 And that's what bothers people SO much, Harrison, I think.

14 Harrison, Jesus was punishing people who defiled the temple not seeking to benefit Himself in anyway. When He personally was attacked He did not resist evil. If you were going after people who misuse the Church and God's word for personal gain you will not hear a peep from me. (That was not what Pat Roberson was doing) We are supposed to turn the other cheek, the wrath belongs to God. If you really want to hurt someone then be meek and loving as they mistreat you. You will heap burning coals on their head. Jesus told us we don't have a right to vengeance. Who is to say what God's will was in this matter? Don't you remember how the 'friends' of Job judged him for his troubles saying he must have sinned against God to have these troubles. They were wrong to do that and Pat Robertson is wrong to accuse Ariel unless God Himself told him to do so. I think Ariel is suffering from being old and overweight, who is to say that God did not delay the sickness as opposed to cause it. In general Christ makes it clear it is not our place to condemn or find cause for the misfortunes of others. (Luke 13:1-9) In the Old Testament God regarded the lives of the peoples who lived in Palestine. He made His people wait in Egypt until the peoples had become sinful enough to disserve being conquered by Israel. Israel was given the land not because they were good but the people their were evil. Also when the Israelites tried to go and conquered without the strength of the Lord they failed. Right now Israel is a secular nation, that practices irreligion, abortion and all the evils for which the destroyed the Canaanites, Amorites and others so many thousands of years ago. The Lord did not tell Israel that this was the time to take the land and Israel has rejected God and become a secular nation. I donÂ’t see how anyone could say that it is GodÂ’s word for Israel to wipe out these people, many of whom are pious Christians. It is even more bizarre to say that God is punishing a fat old man with a heart attack when all Ariel Sharon was doing was making definable borders for the Palestinian ghettos. Israel could kill all the Palestinians, or they could give them citizenship, but if they do neither these people have to be somewhere. That somewhere is what Sharon was building a wall around. There is not religion in this is just hatred and a feeling of entitlement. Both the militant Islamic followers andthe Zionist are more interested in their racist land grabs than they are in God. Well God will not be reduced to a political tool. Pat Robertson has dishonored the Christian community (as Ray Nagin also has) and quite simple sounds like a Ayatollah.

15 So, in your opinion, Mindflame -- and I'm not asking you to pass judgement or condemn anyone here on Earth -- does God currently punish people? And I mean today, here on Earth. Is God's wrath felt today? If so, how would we know it?

16 I think feeling God's wrath here on Earth is one of the best things that can happen to a person. If you respond to it well maybe you wont feel God's wrath for all of eternity. That kind of punishment is a blessing and a sign of God's special favor. (Rev. 3:19) God ,of course, could punish today in the physical world, I think he does. But we are warned not to look back on bad things that happen to people and say "That was God's judgment for X". The book of Job warns against this, the Psalms warn against it and Luke 13, warns against it. We don't understand God's motives and we don't know the secret details of peoples lives. Even if we knew that Ariel Sharon was suffering from the wrath of God (rather than the natural result of being old and fat) then it would be wrong to think that we could read the mind of God enough to say why. There are some Ayatollahs who believe that God is punishing Sharon for not pulling out of more terrorizes. Of course we have had prophets, real ones, who have said "If you don't stop doing X, than Y will happen." That is pretty different from what Pat Roberson, Ray Nagin, and the Ayatollahs have been doing. Because they all came along after things have happened and said that they happened because people did not do as they say. The short answer, Yes, Ogre, I think that God does from time to time show his wrath on Earth but I think it is impossible (and blasphemous) to interpret that wrath if we are not personally the target or directly informed by God about it.

17 And I tend to agree with you. I think he does show his wrath. And I certainly agree that our tiny minds will never fully comprehend all that he does. I just wonder if we shall see prophets in our lifetime that will be able to see His works directly.

18 Thats kind of a weak comparison. The media cant really be expected to track down every random, dumb statement from random officials of other countries. And of course, the reason it got play here and in Israel, is because Pat Robertson has long been a political powerhouse for the evangelical base of the GOP. The Saudi Officials you mention, are not. Well, actually, you could argue they are also, but not in a good way. I thought Robertson's statement was incredibly inappropriate. If you are a family member of Sharon, do you want to hear that crap? How about some good, christian support for a family in their time of need. And Robertson's statement seemed politically expedient- he saw an opportunity to use Sharon's stroke to pimp his own views on the West Bank. Conservatives and the White House were right to condemn it. If Clinton or Jesse Jackson or anyone else had said it, it would have gotten the same coverage and I would have claimed that it was inappropriate and rather selfish.

19 And somebody questioned how feinstein and hillary "would like it" if they had to live over in Saudi Arabia- what does that have to do with anything? If you want to find someone who spends more time with the Royal House of Saud than almost anyone in politics, it's the Bush family, so I am not sure what your point is, other than the usual "I hate the dems so I'll make this factually-irrelevant statement that makes no sense." Saudi Arabia is a terrorism apologist who had more of a hand in 9/11 than any other country. They are anti-west and anti-semitic but you wont see the Bushies doing much or saying much about it. They're pals. And they protect the Saudis every chance they get. So, I think your outrage is misplaced.

20 I think you're incorrect in saying that if Clinton or another Democrat had said it that the treatment from the press would be the same. I present Mayor Nagin as a prime, current example.