Next up, from 3:30-4:45pm EST is another issues forum on Illegal Immigration. Quite a panel for this discussion:

Rick Martinez of the Raleigh News and Observer

Ron Woodard, Director of NC Listen

Jack Martin, Special Projects Director for Federation for American Immigration Reform

Steve Bizzell, Sheriff of Johnson County

Fern Shubert, former legislator and Republican candidate for governor of North Carolina.

About 100 or 110 people are attending this issues forum, but that's only because all the seats are completely full and there's about 15 people standing in the back to listen in. Ron Woodard had a number of specific thoughts about illegal immigrants:

No "undocumented immigrants" -- they have more documents than most people. $480 million per year for education on illegals in NC. $445 million on health care. 1/3 of all uninsured in NC are illegals. Only 15% of illegals in NC are doing argicultural jobs. Immigrants have a HIGHER rate of unemployment than citizens.

States can do what? Require passports to get driver's licenses. Deny benefits to illegals. No in-state tuition. Require government contractors to validate their worker's citizenship. Make English the official language of the satte.

Encourage legal immigration and remove services from the illegals for everything but emergency medical care. Get the illegals to deport themselves, even if it takes a few years -- it took many years for them all to come here, it will take time to get them out.

Steve Bizzell gave a description of his view of illegal immigrants:

Call a "DUI" a drunk, call a Mexican a Mexican. He has 50 Mexicans in jail right now. Illegal is illegal and no one wants to talk about how many actual illegals he has to deal with each day. Most have no operator's license, no insurance, doing drugs -- 80-85% of the drug trade in Johnson County is done by Mexicans. They've collected $2 million in drug money, mostly from Mexicans.

Use Homeland Security money to close the border.

Mexican illegal immigrants are a major problem that law enforcement has to deal with today. They're going to have to spend $8-9 million to expand the jails to accomidate all the illegals that have to be placed in jail.

Jack Martin, Director of Special Projects says:

Immigration is not a universal or world perspective. However, liberals and even some in the pulpit are approaching this issue from a different perspective that encourages lawbreaking.

He was overjoyed to hear that the U.S. Senate today did not come to an agreement that would have granted amnesty and created guest worker programs (no matter what the Senators called them). It now appears that there may be no vote on anything this year regarding illegal immigrants.

The strength his group has in Congress is that the vast majority of Americans are just absolutely fed up with the real situation with illegal immigrants and the costs associated with them. His organization and others are trying to communicate the actual feelings of the people of this country.

The rule of law is clearly an important issue. These people's FIRST act upon entering the United States is to break the law. Then they head to the streets with foreign flags demanding things from the government. What indication does that give that these people with contribute to respect the rule of law in our society.

The first focus of our Congress should be on the needs and rights of the American people. Should we accept the invitation that the country becomes dependent on a foreign workforce and on workers who are only working for low wages in this country? To Mr. Martin, this is reprehensable.

In CA, educating illegals, incarceration, and medical services, $10 BILLION per year.

Fern Schubert

As a Christian, I have no problem with anyone on the basis of race, color, or country of origin. I understand that this is a country that was created by immigrants. The issue is ILLEGAL immigration. The newspaper claims that since most illegals are Mexican, if you oppose illegal immigration, you're racist.

The major casualty of supporting those who break the law is the truth. The numbers produced by the press completely ignore specific numbers -- such as local costs, daily costs, and other costs. The press typically ignores costs to the jails, sheriffs, insurance costs, health care costs, etc.

She works with legal immigrants and had a member on her campaign staff who was a LEGAL immigrant -- and he really was annoyed by the people who were messing up immigration for everyone else.

Why shouldn't we just completely get rid of the entire southern border and invite everyone in? The lifeboat only holds so many people. We [the US] are the lifeboat for the world. This state is awash in drugs because we [North Carolina] help people who BREAK THE LAW. Why is our state so stupid? I blame the state leadership that keeps us in the dark.

You live in the pre-civil war south and the great slave-masters want cheap labor. The problem is the crooked boss who wants to hire someone below minimum wage; that wants to hire someone who won't complain.

Rick Martinez, the opinion editor for the News and Observer, weighed in with quite a different opinion:

"I am the only person in the room who supports a guest worker program." He strongly supports Bush' ideas and plans. He says it's a good plan and a necessary plan.

At this, the entire room went silent. No one could really believe this fellow. As he started talking, it elicited various comments at different times throughout the room. None were impressed with his position.

He claims the rage over the amnesty bill is because "you people" are upset. "If you want to build a fence, fine, build a fence. But you can do the same thing with a guest worker program."

When he claimed that illegal immigrants are doing jobs Americans won't, the room erupted in various angry comments. "A guest worker program is the most efficient way to fix the problem. If you want to send 11 million people back, that's fine with me." This brought applause from the audience.

Jack Martin responded that amnesty was already tried back in 1986, when it was completely understood that that would be the LAST time that amnesty was granted. That is the premise upon which the House of Representatives is responding and passing the laws.

Rick Martinez then complained that since the Sheriff wasn't arresting people for violating the cohabitation law, why should they enforce immigration law just because it's the law?

Ron Woodard came back in with some actual facts about supply and demand and how they set the wages. He pointed out that the more people that are looking for the job, the lower the wages will be set. More people push down the wages for everyone.

He also pointed out that we know that a fence along the border is a good idea because Mexico doesn't.

The Ogre also agrees with him -- he thinks it's better that the U.S. Senate pass nothing than pass the amnesty agreements that have been coming out of the Senate and from the President.

Ruth Samuelson, a County Commissioner from Mecklenburg County (which includes the kingdom of Charlotte), asked about the economic impact that Rick complains about. She noted that when slavery was abolished, there was an economic impact, but we still did it. She also wanted to know the economic impact of increasing wages because of the lack of illegals.

Ron Woodard said that studies have been done and show that if, for example, the wages for those who pick tomatoes were doubled, the total cost increase to the consumer is around 1-2 cents per pound.

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