Various presidential candidates are campaigning, telling the people that they will not support leaving Iraq until we achieve victory. Others are talking about leaving "with honor." The question I don't hear asked is, "What will that look like?"
How will we know when we've "won?" Will there be total peace in Iraq? Heck, we can't get that in any city in America. Will there be no terrorists? How would we know? Would there be a police force that has total control over it's citizens? Isn't that where we started?
Seriously, I'm wondering -- have you seen any candidate, anywhere, outline exactly what victory in Iraq will look like? Or do you have any ideas, personally, of what that might be?
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A reasonable solution is presented in Peter Galbraith's book "The End of Iraq" and Sen. Joe Biden (unfortunately a Democrat) has proposed a 3-state solution (now called a "soft partition") where Iraq is divided into 3 separate states: Kurdistan, Anbar (Sunni), and Southern Iraq (Shias).
This has worked in every other country created after the fall of the Soviet Union -- Yugoslavia, Chechoslavakia, and Bosnia.
The "success" in Anbar Province is a defacto implementation of this -- Sunnis policing Sunni's. To think this will ever create a strong federal central government (as desired by the oil bigs) is very ignorant of Iraq's history and current culture. A strong state/weak federal government (like Canada) is what the Iraqis agreed upon when they wrote their constitution. Looks like Dubya ignores foreign constitutions, too.
As noted by many, Sunnis will fight Al-Queda and certainly Kurdistan and Shiites will fight Sunni Al-Queda, too. So why are Americans dying for Iraqi's elite? I dunno. Ask the oil industry currently running the White House.
I suppose, if oil industry can keep its monopoly on oil profits from a 3-state Iraq, perhaps this madness could come to an end.
They certainly don't want another Hugo Chavez, using $80/barrel oil to win friends and influence governments in Latin America. And right now, Chavez is kicking our butts WITHOUT the use of military force. Hmmm.... maybe his approach is far less costly and far more effective than trying to militate our will around the globe.
Posted by: Peter Galbraith at September 19, 2007 07:06 PM (SK5U6)
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I like the idea of a 3-state solution. I've heard bad things about that (Turkey will attack one, Iran will attack one, etc). But the problem is -- I've not heard ONE PERSON in government talk about a 3-state -- not one of the current candidates! So I wonder what other views of "victory" exist out there.
Posted by: Ogre at September 19, 2007 07:18 PM (oifEm)
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Well, Sen. Joe Biden is a candidate for President who advocates a 3-state solution, but you obviously don't pay attention to any candidates without an "R" after their name. (Don't get me wrong -- I advocate a 3-state solution as the only reasonable way out of this mess; I'm not advocating that you vote for anyone who supports the 3-state solution.
Besides, Joe Biden has no pizazz (like that slick ex-Governor of Taxachusetts :-)
The Bush administration seems hell-bent to keep trying forever to get the Police-State solution you mentioned in your original post. But if Petraeus's armed forces cannot even protect the Sunni Shiek who advocated joining the U.S. Military to fight Al-Queada, I'm afraid a military solution will only result in the endless war Halliburton wants so dearly.
Oops, even Gen. Petraeus acknowledges there is no military solution for Iraq -- then why the f--- are we keeping 130,000 troops there???
Posted by: Jean Stables at September 21, 2007 02:40 AM (SK5U6)
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It's rather difficult to have a conversation with someone who starts out with insults.
Posted by: Ogre at September 21, 2007 11:36 AM (oifEm)
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http://news.yahoo.com/s/cq/20071001/pl_cq_politics/bidendefendssenatevoteonpartitioningiraq
Posted by: John Daley at October 01, 2007 10:30 PM (vfDxP)
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Sorry for being rude after I thought you were being rude to me by totallying ignoring the fact I presented to you that Joe Biden, a Presidential candidate, has been advocating a 3-state solution for some time now.
Posted by: John Daley at October 01, 2007 10:34 PM (vfDxP)
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Thanks for the link about that -- I had no idea a 3-state solution had actually passed!
Of course, it's INCREDIBLY ironic that the US Senate would propose a federation of united states in Iraq while they work so hard in America to do everything they can to destroy the current federation of states here!
Posted by: Ogre at October 02, 2007 12:36 AM (wkwq7)
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The 3-state solution is written into the Iraqi Constitution. It's the only way the 3 major ethnic/religious groups would agree to a central govenment. Kurds did not want to give up their defacto independence. Sunnis believe they have a God-given right to rule Iraq. Shias want to dominate the new government (which they would with 80% of the population).
So, it's the Iraqi constitution that the Bush administration wants to re-write. Most of the Senators and Congressional Representatives in the USA know less about Iraq than you or I do.
Posted by: John Daley at October 03, 2007 03:59 AM (8Tq4X)
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That's odd. Why hasn't there been any action on this? Why aren't the 3-states in place? If it's in their Constitution, why aren't they holding elections in the 3 states and setting up individual governments?
Posted by: Ogre at October 03, 2007 11:35 AM (oifEm)
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Good question. I understand that things are working well at the local level. For example, the Iraqi central government cannot carry out reconstruction projects (there is/was no federal agency to do this). So reconstruction projects were done by local governments. This was discussed on the floor of the Congress ... one of those 3 AM C-SPAN newsbit that major US media no longer covers.
Anbar province is another example. The LOCAL Sunnis are now partnering with the U.S. to fight Al-Queda (who have committed inhuman crimes against innocent Iraqi citizens). But the NATIONAL Sunnis want no part of a strong federal government because it will be dominated by Shias.
Oddly, the Anbar government official credited with leading this partnership was assasinated by Al-Queda in Iraq. I would think he would be given super-protection, considering the PR value of the Anbar Sunnis joining forces with the U.S.
I think the Kurds have been living independently in Kurdistan since 1990. The Peshmerger (their local militia) was able to drive Saddam's army out of Kurdistan after the first Gulf War.
What's surprising to me is that the U.S. wants to fight the local militias but it clearly states in the Iraqi constitution that each local government has control of its own military and police. Like the Confederate States of America, I believe the state's laws were supreme over the confederacy's laws.
Using Kurdistan as an example, I think this whole war could have been avoided if they just did what General Gardner recommended: turn Iraq over to Iraqis withing 6 months. Instead, Rumsfield called him back and sent Paul Bremmer with the most corrupt "Coalition Provisional Authority" government that turned many Iraqis against the U.S. forever.
Thankfully General Petrayus has a much better understanding of the insurgency than the neo-cons who were running the Pentagon in 2003, but I think his actions are coming too late for the thousands of deaths that war has cost.
Maybe Bush admin will be able to finesse a 3-state solution and claim victory, but he seems thoroughly deluded into seeking a military occupation and then hand this mess off to the next president to clean up.
Sorry for rambling on ... at leat the "sense of the Senate" resolution gives him cover to declare a 3-state solution as an honorable end to the military action if he chooses to.
Posted by: John Daley at October 03, 2007 07:52 PM (8Tq4X)
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Ogre, they do have local elections in Iraq. I think each province elects a governor, just like states in the U.S.
Posted by: John Daley at October 03, 2007 07:57 PM (8Tq4X)
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I wonder if that's the plan -- wait until after the primaries and then declare victory, suddenly withdrawing a lot of troops. Man, would THAT mess up the election!
Posted by: Ogre at October 04, 2007 07:14 PM (oifEm)
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And how! If they could pull off the switch-a-roo by March or April, most voters will forget all the battles in time for election day in November... Like Michael Vick's dog-fighting scandal was a major outrage for almost a week, and now, just a few weeks later, his case is practically all but forgotten by the public and the media.
However, I think it would be even more ironic if victory comes because Al-Maliki asks the U.S. to leave his country for killing too many innocent civilians by mistake. That would be shocking!
Say, you put a lot of entertaining and funny stuff on your blog ... have you ever checked out http://www.snopes.com for material ??
I always seem to be the last one to find out about cool web sites :-)
Hey! The Cal Bears are now ranked #2 in the country! Guess that jinxes them to lose next Saturday :-)
After being accepted by Annapolis in high school, I ended up going to Cal Berkeley instead (because I had a U.S. Navy job at Mare Island Naval Shipyard (WestNavelex) building electronic warfare communications equipment for Navy & Marines serving in the Vietnam War and they let me goto Berkeley on my own time) Imagine if I graduated from the Naval Academy our active duty careers might have crossed. Weird, huh?
I've been reading "The Great American College Tuition Rip-Off" by Paul Streitz, the Republican candidate for Senate in Connecticut who ran against Sen.Joe Lieberman (a virtual Republican already, so Streitz lost the election).
Surpriseingly, I agree with most of what he says about financial mis-management in higher education, but sometimes he takes off on a "multi-cultural" rant that has nothing to do with fiscal responsibility, and I find myself wondering why the (incorrect) emotional stuff comes out of nowhere ...
... and then I see how you might be perplexed by some of my comments which seem totally unrelated to the discussion at hand (because I leave out missing connective details)..
You've been very considerate to me. Thanks.
I'm rooting for Bush to co-opt the 3-state solution and massage it enough to satisfy both the oil companies and the American and Iraqi publics. The words "Bush" and "finess" don't go together like "My way or the highway", but I can hope ...
Both Carolina college football teams won big this weekend.
Posted by: John Daley at October 08, 2007 08:35 AM (WHCOZ)
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Well thanks for stopping by, even with lots of rambling, seemingly unrelated comments!
And I think if Bush gets out of Iraq, or even just announces a total withdrawl, after the primaries, the entire presidential election will be thrown into a tizzy -- no matter how or why we get out.
Posted by: Ogre at October 08, 2007 10:32 AM (wkwq7)
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Boy, I'd love to hear that Bush is getting out of Iraq! I'll be happy with Peace in Iraq anyway we can get it.
But do you think there's any chance of that?
Bush administration seems to be beating a steady drum to invade Iran ... almost exactly the same way he did to attack Iraq before the U.N. Inspectors were allowed to finish their search for WMD just two months after March, 2003.
Please don't take offense but "pre-emptive strike" was invented by Adolf Hitler (called a "bitzkrieg" -- "shock & awe"). Everyone else before the 1940's openly recognized that you either attacked your enemy directly or you strategized to become an ally of your enemy until a more convenient situation was created to take control of your enemy's territory (like the Japanese Samurai warriors did in the 1500's for their Shogun).
I just don't see Bush willing to try anything other than brute military force, which hasn't worked very well so far.
Do you see signs that Bush might try to get out of Iraq before the end of his term?
I'd feel better if you pointed out something I'm missing in my limited understanding of what's happening there. (I like your original post "Isn't a military dictatorship where we started?" :-)
Posted by: John Daley at October 14, 2007 11:53 AM (ACq/K)
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Ogre, I mean, like the Brits have retreated into the city center of Basra and virtually are saying "We're outta here."
They claim that the local Iraqis (Shias) have everything under control now, but independent news reports say differently. Many claim that England is finally responding to its voters will.
Do you think Bush could possibly declare Iraq able to defend itself and then withdraw U.S. troops?
The W.W. II Allies invaded Europe on June 6, 1944 and the powerful German military machine had surrendered by the end of 1945. Bush has had 6 years with the best military talent and yet we (the only super-power in the world) are being out-foxed into an "endless war" by a tiny rag-tag army with little more than small-arms firepower.
This just doesn't compute (for me).
Posted by: John Daley at October 14, 2007 12:26 PM (ACq/K)
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I think the country formerly known as America will have troops in the middle east for many years to come. There is only one candidate for president that wants the US out of Iraq/Iran: Ron Paul. EVERY other candidate will continue these battles at least until 2012.
Posted by: Ogre at October 14, 2007 07:05 PM (wkwq7)
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I'm sorry to say I agree with you 95% about EVERY other candidate will continue these battles in the Mid-East. Gov. Richardson (?) also wants 100% of U.S. Troops out of Iraq. He makes a lot of sense on many issues I agree with, but he has little chance of overtaking Hillary's political skills.
I was totally cheered by Ron Paul's raising $5 MILLION over the Internet -- a real grass-roots campaign -- the PEOPLE versus the ESTABLISHMENT.
He gave an excellent interview on PBS NewsHour last Friday nite. It's on their website if you want to download the podcast and listen to it.
I just hope he doesn't show some innocent enthusiasm by shouting into a microphone to a noisy audience and then the media mis-portrays it (by omitting the crowd noise) like they did to clobber Gov. Dean's campaign in the last primary.
I'd be very happy to see Ron Paul in the White House -- a real breath of fresh air this country badly needs.
Just for grins, who do you think is sleazier -- Mittney or Guiliani??
I think we can safely say John McCain is in it just for the money (running a Prez campaign is a multi-million dollar business by itself; let alone the treasure you will get if you win :-)
If Ron Paul wins, we could both see a happy ending. Wouldn't that be nice?!
Posted by: John Daley at October 15, 2007 12:50 AM (ACq/K)
19
http://www.
pbs.
org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec07/paul_10-12.htm
has a transcript of the Ron Paul interview (and you can download an mp3 audio recording of the talk.
http://www.
pbs.
org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec07/bdgore_10-12.html
has a transcript of David Brooks (R) and EJ Dione (D) who have some very good MODERATE analysis of the current primary situation.
It's worth a 10-minute listen (IMHO).
PS-- No fair answering "Hillary" to the Romney/Guiliani question :-)
Posted by: John Daley at October 15, 2007 04:55 AM (ACq/K)
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I don't see how Paul has a chance, but I hope there really are a lot of voters out there that the media is simply ignoring (as usual) so he will win. The world would change overnight.
As for Romney/Guiliani -- I'm thinking Romney is more sleazy because he seems more willing to say whatever voters want to hear. Guiliani is a liberal, and he stands by his liberal positions.
Posted by: Ogre at October 15, 2007 12:19 PM (oifEm)
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Re: "the country formerly known as Amerika", I prefer to think of our country's current situation as excellent material for a book titled "The Unfinished Society: A History of the Amerikan Peoples" which we could write together to serve the "greater purpose of the book" (which is making lots of money :-)
Posted by: John Daley at October 16, 2007 07:49 AM (VZyOx)
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I just long to live in a free country. I wish there were such a place today.
Posted by: Ogre at October 16, 2007 09:58 AM (wkwq7)
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Well, Elian Gonzalez's father said he walks his little boy to school everyday and he is "free" of worry that some knuckleheads will storm the campus and murder his son in a hail of automatic weapons gunfire.
He says he is "free" of worry about losing his son to a simple medical problem because good medical care is provided to everyone in his country.
He says he is "free" of worry about how to pay for Elian's college education because all students who pass the entrance exams are encouraged to graduate from college in his country which provides a college education for all academically-qualified students in his country.
And he is "free" of worry that some large multinational corporation will use the bankruptcy laws to deny his family the pension and medical care he was promised after working 40 years of his life because everyone has food, shelter, and health care in his country.
Maybe you should move to Cuba :-)
Unless your "freedoms" are abstract airy-fairy stuff like "line-item vetos" or "lowering corporate income taxes" which are not the concern of ordinary, everyday working Americans who want their children to have a better life than they did.
Posted by: John Daley at October 17, 2007 06:27 AM (q5k6l)
24
A "better life" is not freedom. Elian's dad is delusional -- because that's what he was taught. Freedom is about being allowed to do things without asking government permission. "Worry" is not freedom.
Posted by: Ogre at October 17, 2007 10:50 AM (wkwq7)
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I agree 100% that "creature comforts" are not freedom -- if that were true everyone would move to Dubai :-)
But good quality education, health care, safety (security), keeping promises (pensions) are basic human needs, not superfluos consumerism gone wild.
Except for a driver's license, I don't fully understand the things I need to ask the government permission to do. I can freely travel anywhere in the world and I can associate with any people I choose ... so I don't get your "permission" point ... perhaps your lifestyle is more restricted than mine??
Posted by: John Daley at October 17, 2007 08:20 PM (CrO2/)
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No, those are not "needs" or "rights" AT ALL. Anything that demands someone else do something for you is not a right: education, health care, and security all require government to force someone to do something for you. That's simply wrong.
As for permissions -- if you're in America, you statement is not true. You cannot travel anywhere outside the country without asking government permission (passport?). You cannot associate with anyone you like -- unless government approves. Just try opening a "whites only" business. And go ahead, just try and engage in ANY commerce or trade -- either selling something or trading your labor -- and see if you can without asking government permission. Perhaps you can, but when government finds out you did, they will arrest you and throw you in jail.
Welcome to America today.
Posted by: Ogre at October 18, 2007 12:02 AM (wkwq7)
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I didn't claim they are "entitlements", I simply said "don't confuse them with the materialistic things" that one side of the Elian Gonzalez issue was touting.
Education, health care, and security are "good things" that "good governments" provide for their people. And if some people could see beyond the tip of their noses they would realize that good education, health care and security are in everyone's best interests.
> That's simply wrong.
I suppose you agree that the hundreds of millions of dollars Erik Prince (BlackwaterUSA) has ripped off from taxpayers is equally wrong. He wouldn't be running his private corporation if he wasn't making a ton of money, so please don't wrap him up inside a U.S. flag and tout what a true patriot he is. And the "fully burdened costs" of a $60,000 Army Ranger is a better bargain than a $300,000 BlackwaterUSA mercenary -- or else Blackwater wouldn't be making any profits.
I thought the purpose of passports was to keep illegal immigrants out of this country. Now you want to let everyone on the airplane just waltz into this country without documentation??
Posted by: John Daley at October 18, 2007 07:55 PM (VZyOx)
28
In order for any government, anywhere to "provide" something "good," they MUST take it by force from someone else, plain and simple. That's wrong, and that's evil.
As for passports, there's no such thing as an "illegal immigrant" in this country today. Literally.
Posted by: Ogre at October 19, 2007 11:12 AM (oifEm)
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Money is deducted from payroll checks and cash registers have become tax collectors. Sorry as that is, it's hardly taking "by Force".
Immigrants have always been exploited by rich owners of railroads (Chinese coolies) and New York City businessmen (the Irish and Italians who dug the tunnels by hand to build NYC subway system in the late 1800's.
I just don't get why you want to pick on the poor coal miner or hard-working farm worker, while you seem to give a "free pass" to rich white dudes like Cheney and Bush who have never worked a full day in their lives!
BTW, I like your question "Victory In Iraq" -- Stephen Colbert had the perfect answer this morning on "Meet the Press":
God won the war.
He just doesn't occupy very well.
Posted by: John Daley at October 22, 2007 02:21 AM (604CD)
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http://www.mtp.msnbc.com
for the Stephen Colbert funnies.
Posted by: John Daley at October 22, 2007 02:24 AM (604CD)
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Excuse me, but I have to say one thing.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Sadly, you believe that, don't you? Tell you what, don't pay your income taxes and let me know if anyone uses any force against you. See if you don't get tossed in jail -- and if you resist being tossed in jail, you WILL be shot. It's happened thousands of times. That's force, whether you submit to the will of someone else "voluntarily" or not. Sadly, most people have bought into your line of thinking, actually thanking the master for letting you keep a little bit of the money you earn.
And I'm not even going to bother to respond to the baseless, leftist class warfare that's just total lies.
Posted by: Ogre at October 22, 2007 03:04 AM (wkwq7)
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How about Erik Prince claiming that BlackwaterUSA's mercenaries are "independent contractors" so he avoids collecting income and payroll taxes from those poor ex-special forces guys making $20,000/month?
IRS is after his thieving butt, but that prick is appealing in the courts.
You see, one of the big differences between the U.S. and Arab nations is that we settle disputes in courts of law. In Arab nations families and tribes "defend their honor" with brute force -- and women are stoned to death for alleged infidelity (like Christians used to burn witches at the stake a few centuries ago, but we've gotton past that in this country.)
You don't respond to information (facts & data) because all your arguments are emotional, gut-level slogans. You dream up irrational speculations like "murdering all people whose names begin with 'M'", but you have no answers for what's really happening in today's world.
Posted by: John Daley at October 23, 2007 10:08 PM (eAUyf)
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I hope you enjoy your life in whatever world you live in. It's not the real world, unfortunately.
My argument wasn't emotional, it was quite factual, even if you didn't like the facts. If you do not pay your taxes, the money WILL be taken from you by force. I realize you don't believe that. Go ahead, try it. Don't pay your income taxes. See if what the IRS does to you is "irrational speculation."
Posted by: Ogre at October 24, 2007 02:04 AM (aF6z7)
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One specific example: you still haven't declared which is worse -- passports or illegal immigrants?
I certainly agree in an abstract, ideal world we wouldn't need the government hassle of getting a passport to cross International borders. But I've seen other posts where you rant about the influx of illegal immigrants.
Do you think passports are just a government intrusion into your "personal freedoms" or do you recognize their importance in keeping illegal immigrants out of this country?
Posted by: John Daley at October 25, 2007 07:11 AM (eAUyf)
35
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything I've talked about or mentioned. In today's world, once again, there is no such thing as an illegal immigrant. Government does not recognize such a thing. This country has open borders in which anyone who is not a citizen can pass without question. There is no organized government attempt to keep any non-citizens out of this country today at all.
Posted by: Ogre at October 25, 2007 11:24 AM (oifEm)
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The far right used to complain about lazy, non-working "welfare moms" causing all our country's problems. Now they are whining about ambitious, risk-taking, hard-working "illegal" immigrants. In a globalized world, corporations can exploit cheap labor anywhere they want, but if cheap labor wants to come to America as our ancestors did, you'd think their "trespass" crime was murder!
Posted by: John Daley at October 25, 2007 09:01 PM (8Tq4X)
37
Oh, BTW, our "Homeland Security" dollars are paying local sheriff and police departments to do their work for them. Once again, taxpayers are getting double-taxed: once by the county and city for police service and then again by the Feds to do the work they are supposed to do (ie, enfore INS laws).
http://www.pbs_.org/now/shows/342/287g.html#here
has two examples in New Jersey: one mayor who works with the INS and DHS and one mayor who doesn't. I like PBS because they present both sides of an issue and let you, the viewer, decide which side's arguments make more sense to you (or which side riles your fear/anger emotional response the best :-)
Posted by: John Daley at October 25, 2007 09:10 PM (8Tq4X)
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"hard working illegals." I bet you really believe that one, too.
Posted by: Ogre at October 25, 2007 09:21 PM (2WD8n)
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Of course! For $10/hour they do all the weed-whacking on my 30-acre mountain retreat.
I can't get a high-school kid to mow the lawn for $10/hour -- they prefer to work in a pizza restaurant rather than do any hard physical labor.
Posted by: Amlan Chaterjee at October 26, 2007 08:40 AM (x3vvv)
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Vincente Fox calls Bush a "Winshield Cowboy" because he can drive a pickup truck, but is afraid to ride a horse.
Fits right in with the old adage "100% American is 99% idiot."
Posted by: John Daley at October 28, 2007 09:07 AM (uetv9)
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We already knew you hated Americans.
Posted by: Ogre at October 28, 2007 07:25 PM (2WD8n)
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Nope. Just the assholes who believe that Americans are the God-chosen Supreme race/culture with a 007-license to invade any country in the world. You know, those bullies who want to militate their will to protect oil profits worldwide.
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